Why won’t NASCAR learn from INDYCAR’s mistake?
IndyCar, IndyCar commentary — By Steph Wallcraft on October 9, 2012 8:21 amIt’s rare that we comment on NASCAR-related subjects on these pages. As an INDYCAR news website, any given topic relating to closed-cockpit cars needs to relate back to open-wheel racing quite clearly before we’re comfortable covering it here.
However, the most current discussion of the dangers of pack racing in NASCAR would benefit from an INDYCAR perspective far more than any other in recent memory.
The last-lap wreck at Talladega that affected 25 cars and sent Tony Stewart hurtling through the air was yet another demonstration of the deeply inherent problems with restrictor plate racing.
Once again, NASCAR got away with it and everyone walked away. And once again, the fact that they did was luck — nothing more.
Restrictor plate racing might look exciting on TV, but from the driver’s perspective, there’s little skill involved. It’s a pedal-mashing lottery. They strap in, put their right feet to the floor, and just get jostled around in the pack for miles on end hoping they get through. Passing isn’t so much something a matter of initiative as waiting for someone else to make a mistake.
And when things go wrong, the penalty can be very, very steep.
Relatively few people within the ranks of NASCAR seem willing to point out the obvious, so perhaps it’s time for some sense to come from another angle.
It took the death of Dan Wheldon to convince many people within INDYCAR that pack racing is dangerous, backward, and wrong.
Those are heavy words. Reflect on them for a moment.
Now, consider this: before Wheldon’s death, sanctioning bodies could get away with endorsing pack racing because the concept that it was dangerous was only a theory with no palpable evidence to support it.
In the world that exists after, though, to carry on pack racing like nothing happened — in any form of motorsport, not just INDYCAR — is sickeningly ignorant and completely unacceptable.
Here’s a list of the excuses that will pour out of the NASCAR camp for continuing with restrictor plate racing, along with the reasons why every one of them is wrong.
– INDYCAR racing is inherently more dangerous than Cup racing. This is the classic “it happens to other people but it won’t happen to us” mentality that’s one of the more unfortunate traits of human nature. Yes, it’s true that open-wheel cars are more dangerous in general, but NASCAR is still dangerous. No one has died in a Cup car since Dale Earnhardt, but it’s still very likely to happen again someday. Racing is by its base nature an extremely risky sport. People who take the relative safety of today’s equipment and tracks for granted are kidding themselves. And continuing to race in a way that’s now been demonstrated to greatly increase the inherent risk is mind-bogglingly irresponsible.
– There haven’t been any problems with restrictor plate racing up until now, so it’s possible there never will be. INDYCAR got away with pack racing for many years, too. Take it from any INDYCAR fan: It only takes one incident to bring your entire world crashing down around you.
– It’s what our fans want. It’s a very sad situation for NASCAR that it’s built its entire brand around giving a home to the we-watch-racing-for-the-crashes crowd. For some reason, it’s become okay in NASCAR circles to ignore that there are living, breathing human beings driving these cars — sons, husbands, fathers — and watch solely for the purpose of waiting for them to risk injury or worse for the entertainment of others. That culture is a big part of what sells tickets and sponsorships, and it’s economically impossible for NASCAR to ignore. But the second a popular driver loses his life at Talladega or Daytona, that culture will unravel so fast that the sport may not be able to recover. With the right strategy, NASCAR has the opportunity to educate its fans and take baby steps toward the changes needed to minimize this culture and create an environment that could allow restrictor plate racing to go away. It would be a difficult road, but it would be one far easier to control than dealing with The Big One bringing the whole machine screeching to a halt (quite literally).
In 2012, INDYCAR admitted that pack racing is the wrong direction for the sport, learned many lessons from Dan Wheldon’s passing, and made changes to its formula and policies to put racing back into the hands of its drivers and create a better on-track product than the motorsport world has seen in years.
The onus is now on NASCAR to do the same for itself — ideally before losing one of its popular drivers in the process.
If NASCAR could ever swallow their pride and pay attention to the world outside their own walls, everyone within the sport would come away a winner.
If the death of Dale Sr. (arguably it’s most famous driver at the time) wasn’t enough, I can’t imagine what will be except only something on a larger scale. It still boggles my mind that NASCAR could possibly think that another death due from pack racing is justified in any way.
As you said Steph, it’s not really a matter of ‘if’ but ‘when’.
The additions of SAFER and Hans and roof flaps and paved runoffs must give the NASCAR executives responsible for the decision to go forward with pack racing just enough comfort that the drivers they send into the fray will be “safe”.
In most any facet of living life on planet Earth, safety is an illusion which is more easily believed in some places than others.
Dear NASCAR,
Learn from others’ experiences – stop pack racing, now!
Dear NASCAR fans, If you are truly a fan of your ‘sport’, you don’t really want to go through another death, trust us.
Sincerely,
Indycar fans
I will admit, (and posted to my blog at the time,) that the Las Vegas finale of last year had me glued to the edge of my seat right up until the moment that everything went horribly wrong. Slicing and dicing at 200+ mph (some 30 mph FASTER than NASCAR at the same facility) was, if nothing else, very exciting.
When, however, that excitement is tempered by tragedy as it was in the Dale Sr. and Dan Wheldon crashes, the fan base demands that something be done. Of course, as time goes by (in the case of NASCAR,) those demands weaken and we return to the behaviors that caused the incidents. It is, as Steph points out, not a matter of “if” but “when.”
It is a matter of dumb luck that Tony Stewart, one of the most popular drivers in NASCAR wasn’t seriously hurt or killed in the last lap melee at ‘Dega. If you look at the video, any combination of cars in other places could have led to a far more dreadful outcome.
Perhaps it is time for NASCAR to take the step back from the brink that IndyCar has taken, reducing speeds through handling changes and bringing the driver back into the forefront, rather than the aerodynamics.
I will preface this by saying yes I am wrong…not because I think so…but Steph will argue with me until the death as to why I am…so I have accepted this and decided to post anyway.
Yes…we as IndyCar fans don’t have enough to worry about, let’s tell NASCAR how to run their series into the ground too. NASCAR doesn’t need to look at one thing from Dan’s accident going forward in regards to pack racing. Why? You are comparing apples to oranges here. You are asking a full body stock car that runs 43 cars around a high banked 2.66 mile race track at just about 197 mph to stop and maybe think about running different? To justify this, you are using an accident with 30+ cars that are open wheel and open canopy and moving at 220+ mph on a 1.5 mile track with a skill set separation as wide as Indianapolis straightaway is long? Is the IndyCar offseason really that slow? NASCAR doesn’t need to do one thing. NASCAR has built their cars to withstand that kind of an impact. IndyCar was running a dated chassis around a fast and small track with a RIDICULOUS gimmick to bring viewers (which failed).
NASCAR did lose Dale Sr. in the process of creating this formula for a move that was very similar to that of Sunday’s race. Earnhardt went to block, got tagged and that was it. Stewart went to block Waltrip and went into the air. Is it dangerous? Obviously it is dangerous. If drivers and teams don’t like that style of racing or think it is blood thirsty, then maybe they should find another job or sit out of a race. Mike Conway demonstrated in California what kind of balls it takes to sit out when he feels it is unsafe. Why don’t NASCAR drivers do it? Because they have confidence in their car and the rule set that NASCAR has produced when traveling at that kind of speed in a pack.
The fact of the matter is NASCAR already has taken a step back and created a formula that allows for this type of racing to occur and safely. IndyCar took too long and created a ridiculous gimmick that blew up in their face…and now everyone needs to take a step back and learn from us? Maybe we should have taken a step back after Earnhardt and looked at pack racing. IndyCar messed up and got it wrong…just because IndyCar dropped the ball (like they had been to that point) does not mean everyone needs to stop and adjust accordingly. Maybe we should worry about our own series and let NASCAR be NASCAR? I like the sound of that.
Shaun: yes, I do disagree with you. But please never be under the impression that a differing opinion is unwelcome here or anywhere else.
My primary concern with your comment is the idea that NASCAR should satisfy itself that it’s done all it can and continue to live in a bubble without being influenced by outside events. That is not how progress is made. Imagine how outrageous it would have been for open-wheel to ignore HANS devices just because Dale Sr. died in a stock car. That same mentality is what you’re suggesting now. It’s backward.
As much as some INDYCAR fans like to believe otherwise, all forms of motorsport are connected by common threads, safety arguably being the strongest. Observations made by one series need to be at a minimum considered very seriously by others. It’s not overstatement to say that it could save lives. Doing anything less is arrogant at best — and, at worst, creates traceable liability.
Well apologies for the opening comment, but the article put me under the impression that no matter what I say, I was going to be wrong.
I don’t think NASCAR has satisfied itself as they do take steps to improve safety. They not be DW-12 level upgrades, but they make additions to try and keep the cars down on the ground. I’m sure that NASCAR stood back and thought about it for a bit. They decided not to make changes for the reason I said, they have a product that allows for this type of racing, IndyCar doesn’t and should not have been. We have had a ton of drivers go into the fence and come out with broken backs. At the end of the day, these (Indy) cars have no business being that close at that speed. NASCAR is comfortable with their formula and I agree with them (you know how rare that is). Is that going to stop drivers from being killed?? No. What can we possibly change for that to occur? People will die going 200mph no matter what you do. At some point, they will die and we will investigate what we could have done. I think NASCAR has done a great job utilizing many safety features. IndyCar and Indianapolis pioneered the safety barrier and NASCAR in fact has adopted that. So I think we are being a little backward and ridiculous if we act as though nothing has been done.
I didn’t say nothing has been done. I said not enough has been done. If you’re part of the group that won’t be convinced that pack racing is unnatural in motorsport until someone else dies, then so be it. I’m part of the group that wants something to change before that happens.
We both have the right to express our opinions. Freedom is cool that way. Looks like we’ll have to agree to disagree on this point, though.
Well, Steph. I’d like to think that NASCAR could learn from something from outside of their realm, but the simple fact of the matter is that they refuse to learn from something that happens multiple times per year INSIDE of their realm. You can delete IndyCar from this picture entirely, because nothing IndyCar does or has done has anything to do with it.
This plate track, pack racing crap is not new, as everybody knows. Nor is the occurrence of drivers getting exceedingly lucky to escape serious injury or death during “The Big One”. I read/saw a bunch of folks comparing Sunday’s wreck to the one where Carl Edwards took off into the fence at Talladega in 2009 (I wrote about it here: http://speedgeek.blogspot.com/2009/05/good-call-bad-call.html) and debating which was “gnarlier”, as in which was more spectacular. At no point did these people seem to think that this pattern indicated that possibly it might be a good idea to lessen these wrecks going forward. While an attitude of possibly improving the safety of any workplace or home after a catastrophic near-miss might be the behavior of any sane, rational organization or human being, it appears that NASCAR is not willing to do anything that is going to cost them one thin dime, so long as there is not a 99% chance of seeing that investment come back to them tenfold in T-shirt sales.
Was Sunday as bad as it could get? Lord, no. Picture that same accident happening in the tri-oval. Now, Tony’s not sailing up the banking in the air, he’s flying into the fence, the one that is directly in front of about 100,000 fans. Now, just for grins, since there were 30+ other cars arriving on the scene at 180+ MPH in the next second or so, you might be able to imagine another car taking flight as well. Now, you’ve got not one, but two cars doing unpredictable things in mid-air. If Tony’s car knocks down the fence, what happens when another car arrives in the same point in space? Fences are not currently designed for multiple impacts (a review of the Edwards crash will tell you that). That second car could sail right into the crowd. Now, we’re not talking about the death of a driver who (while this still does not make their death any easier to take) knew the chance that they’d die after strapping into a race car, we are now probably talking about the deaths of several dozen fans. Had things happened the way I just described it, would anybody be rationally thinking about Charlotte this weekend? Or might we be theorizing who among Mike Helton, Gary Nelson or Brian France would be testifying first in front of congress in an effort to keep auto racing as a whole from being banned within the US?
Folks may think this is awful melodramatic (I imagine Shaun is going to opine as much, since he just stated above that NASCAR does not have a safety problem…a standpoint I could not disagree with more strenuously, and which I wrote about as well about 3 years ago right now here: http://speedgeek.blogspot.com/2009/10/nascar-nitwits-against-safety-crashes.html). Maybe it is. But I just think that taking such giant risks as continuing to foment and even encourage pack racing at the plate tracks (or anywhere) in the name of “entertaining the fans (they asked for it!)” flies in the face of reason and sanity. NASCAR apparently is not strong on either count. Good luck to them going forward.
Imagine that Andy….we don’t agree on NASCAR either LOL!
I at this point don’t really see a safety issue. You do mention a situation that is entirely possible. Stewart could have been launched into the fence and someone else could have gone into it as well and gotten killed or landed on the crowd. How on earth are we going to fix that? How is any series going to fix that? Why should NASCAR have to take a step back and investigate after Sunday when nobody has thought of what you just mentioned on a serious level at any series. Not IndyCar, not V8 supercars, not rally racing (and we have had a shit ton of spectator deaths this year)…nobody is asking this question and it is unfair to pin point NASCAR as a series not looking at that stuff. We have just as many cars get sent into the fence. Why are we not looking at your above situation?
At the end of the day, all I am saying is I don’t think we as IndyCar fans have any room to cast stones at NASCAR for safety issues or even mention Dan’s death in the same breath. We suffered a terrible terrible loss, but we need to take our own advice and work on making sure we improve our series. We had cars airborne this year even with the DW-12. NASCAR has done well in trying to keep the cars on the ground and have built a machine that can handle what we saw Sunday and that style of racing.
Of all the major forms of motorsport in the world, NASCAR has the most to lose by a long shot if a popular driver dies or a car goes into the stands. They’re not looking at it because they’re in an arrogance-driven state of denial, not because it’s not a very clear potential problem.
For the record, I don’t consider INDYCAR to be “my” series. I watch and enjoy motorsport in all its forms. It’s a requirement for forming well-rounded opinions.
I’m going to have to play devil’s advocate here and say that comparing Las Vegas to Talladega or Daytona is a bit of an apples-to-oranges situation.
It would have been much more appropriate to make the comparison in 2001 when NASCAR was actively in ostrich mode, even after guys like Adam Petty, Tony Roper, and Kenny Irwin were killed. That was back in the day when people who complained about safety issues were called “candy asses” (ironically, by the man whose death set in motion a sea change in NASCAR with regards to such things).
NASCAR today is a very different animal with regards to safety, to the point where they have turned their car formula into something that fans only grudgingly put up with because of the clear safety benefits the formula provides. Implying their negligence is inaccurate, especially considering the huge advances in cockpit safety NASCAR has made in the 11 years since Earnhardt’s death.
I would even venture to say that IndyCar could be considered the more negligent than NASCAR in this case, because while NASCAR revisited nearly every element of their cars’ safety, IndyCar only reduced downforce enough to break up the packs. Nobody seriously thought about, or even cares to think about, reinforcing or even covering the cockpit area – and the main reason, no matter how many times people bring up what-if scenarios about fire or the cockpit jamming, is because it’s NOT TRADITIONAL to close the cockpits.
I believe INDYCAR and we as fans need to be extremely careful about tossing rocks inside their own glass houses. During NASCAR’s safety renaissance starting in 2001, INDYCAR applied band-aids to issues such as flying cars, back injuries, and other safety concerns out of deference to tradition and cost containment. For every restrictor plate wreck video NASCAR uses as publicity, INDYCAR has used pack racing highlights from their oval races. I just think we need to keep the finger-pointing at bay if we can.
INDYCAR didn’t start doing things right until after they had no choice. That’s a very valid point that’s impossible to deny.
And I will always defer to you on the points from the NASCAR side of the coin because you’re infinitely more qualified than I am to do so.
However, I still think that NASCAR has an opportunity to learn from observation here. I find it very hard to believe that there are actually people within NASCAR who watched the wreck at Talladega on Sunday and said “Yep, it’s always going to turn out that well because our cars are so safe!”
As Andy said above, just one slightly different angle could have spelled disaster. Just one slightly different angle could have prevented disaster at Vegas, too.
This isn’t about how safe the cars are or are not so much as that pack racing vastly increases the likelihood of a situation in which that safety needs to be tested unnecessarily.
Besides which, the same questions that existed before Vegas still exist today: if the driver isn’t being challenged and the equipment isn’t being taxed, does it still qualify as racing? If a pass takes multiple laps to complete, I tend to see it more as a set-up for a crash-fest.
I just have a bit more reason to be louder with that argument these days is all.
First up, I do agree with Tony and Shaun that IndyCar is not through improving the safety of their cars and circuits. I don’t think that anybody here, on other blogs or on Twitter is saying “yep, we’re good!” and claiming that nothing safety related needs to be reviewed again ever. Anybody who thinks such a thing has their heads directly in the sand. I don’t think Steph is claiming that IndyCar has some high horse that they can speak down from, just that something happened at an IndyCar race once that NASCAR might be able to learn from, if they cared about such a thing (Steph can speak for herself, though, so sorry if I’m overstating the case). The issue of enclosed cockpits…I don’t know. I could go either way on that. That’s a whole different argument.
Back to the original point, though. Excepting the fatal accidents of the sort that claimed Piers Courage or Roger Williamson (where the driver burned to death in the car), think about every fatal accident in the history of motorsport. What did every one have in common? That would be: a vehicle travelling very fast hitting something travelling something travelling much, much slower or something stationary (or hitting spectators, which is basically a case of the latter, when you get right down to it). At the core of it, an impact force is what kills. What happens at most races (i.e. anywhere outside of NASCAR plate races and, previously, IndyCar 1.5 mile track races) is that fields string out enough to the point where when a car (or multiple cars) crash, only a handful of cars can or will arrive on the scene while doing anything near full racing speed. The initial impact(s) of the original wrecking car(s), that is what is made safer by stuff like the SAFER barrier and HANS devices and improved helmets and better car crashability (and I’d say that all series everywhere have improvements that can be made there, as advances in material sciences and understanding the effects of physical trauma to the human body are made). The more dangerous situation is when an already crashed car (remember, its structural integrity has already been compromised by the initial impacts) is struck by a car still going at a high rate of speed. This is why restrictor plate races are exponentially more dangerous than racing anywhere else: you can have situations where 30+ cars arrive on the scene of a crash with no more than a split second to scrub off speed and/or take avoiding measures. Chaotic things happen that you can never simulate in a wind tunnel or with a computer program (think of it as a pool table with 35 balls on it, as opposed to one with 3 balls on it…which one would you rather put your hand on when Minnesota Fats breaks?). True, open wheel cars at Vegas last year made for a far more dangerous situation than most plate races will, due to IndyCars having open wheels, but for NASCAR to just say “well, we’ve got some good cages and some good crushable structure and good window nets…done and done. Pack ’em up!” is lunacy. Anybody who thinks a driver could survive an airborne car going into a driver’s side window (i.e. above the bulk of the roll cage) is fooling themselves. The same goes for abybody who thinks that NASCAR can avoid a massive tragedy 4 times per year indefinitely with no changes to the current plate racing situation. And for all of NASCAR’s admirable attempts to keep the cars on the ground, you don’t have to know a ton about aerodynamics to know that something that is designed to go exactly one direction (front bumper forward) at 150-200 MPH is going to have problems staying on the ground at every other concievable direction of travel (seriously, even a cinder block will take flight if it’s launched at 180 MPH).
That’s the long and the short of it. Regardless of whether or not the DW12 is as safe as it could/should be (it probably isn’t, though I do imagine it’s better than just about any IndyCar that’s ever come before it), IndyCar has done the right thing by getting away from pack racing. Meanwhile, NASCAR apparently thinks they’ve done enough to ameliorate their risks, which I think is crazy misguided. But, Brian France is probably falling asleep on a bed of $100 bills right this second while I’m sitting here smearing Cheetos crumbs on my shirt, so I’m probably wrong. Whatever.
I am sure that Brian France has a lot of cheetos stains on his shirt too….lol
Considering that Speed TV uses Carl Edwards’ crash at Talladega in their race promos – a crash that caused an injury to a woman in the grandstands – I doubt much will come along to change the way things are run at nascar anytime soon.
I think it is worth noting that restrictor plates themselves were first introduced as a safety measure to slow cars down and reduce the chances of them getting into the catch-fencing at Daytona and Talladega. This was also the intent of running restrictor plates at the 2000 New Hampshire race.
I’m sure most of us already know this and I don’t say this to disagree with the points that NASCAR needs move away from pack racing, but I think it is fair to note the original (and alleged current) purpose of restrictor plates.
As far as driver opinions about pack racing…
One of the few actual conversations I have ever had with a major series race car driver was with Johnny Benson prior to the Daytona 500 several years ago. When asked how he liked racing at Daytona, he said that most of the drivers couldn’t wait to to get to Rockingham the next week and start the “real racing”.
everyone seem to forget here the nascar fans ask for this type of racing. nascar broke up the big pack racing and gave us two by two racing at the plate tracks and fans hated it, nascar fans wanted the pack. does anyone remember back at the daytona test in jan? my gosh twitter blew up with nascar fans saying “the pack is back” and “we love this dont change it” its not nascar fault they are giving the fans what they want, but when something goes wrong every fan turns a blind eye and blame the series itself, but you know the “internet fans” are never wrong they tell the series what they want and when it backfires its the series that get the blame not the fans who told them this is what we want
As always you are 100% rite on with this topic mrs steph! Ive been waiting and waiting for indycar to regain its glory that once was and the steps theyve taken this past year were huge. Nascar is inherently doomed if they dont follow suite. Not that i want them to succeed but i dont want to see any driver lose his life for nothing more then the crash loving crowds amusement. Indycar finally dropped their focus on these crap fans and have sided with fans that love great racing and respect the skill it takes to compete at this high level. If nascar doesnt do this very thing they will very soon be dealing with the lose of a driver.
What I see here is the typical open wheel asshole sticking their noses into something they have no clue about. Few things.
1. The restrictor plates at Daytona and Talladega were brought about because Bobby Allison damn near went into the grandstand back in the late 80’s. The cars had to be slowed down. The problem is these are two tracks they can run flat out at the current speeds. It’s a double edge sword. Too fast and cars will fly in the stands without much help, too slow and you have pack racing. Me? I would rather have the pack racing and take my chances.
2. In response to another poster. The restrictor plates were introduced at New Hampshire not because cars were flying into the catch fence but because stuck throttles were to blame for the deaths of Irwin and Petty. The plates were introduced to slow straight speeds until a safety measure(eventually a cut off switch) could be devised for such a situation.
3. Most fans do not watch for the wrecks. If you think NASCAR is the only one that has fans who do come for the wrecks you have done a good job of showing what a haughty taughty wine and cheese asshole you are. I go to IndyCar races, there are fans there for the wrecks. Trust me.
4. I love open wheel and hate the asshole fans.
First of all: Welcome.
Now, with that taken care of: All I see here is a defensive NASCAR fan with blinders on who’s come in here guns blazing with no interest in giving thoughtful consideration to the issue.
I’m not as familiar with other series as I am with open-wheel, but I’m a fan of all motorsport and do keep tabs on NASCAR.
I’m also aware of how restrictor plate racing came to be. Many of the same problems you cite here led to pack racing in IndyCar as well. But the truth is only that pack racing is *more* safe than having cars fly into the fence — not that pack racing is safe in and of itself. Any driver will tell you so (if his PR rep allows him to).
The safest situation in any form of oval racing, I think we can all agree, is to create an environment that won’t allow cars to fly into the fence but that makes driving challenging enough to that the cars can’t be driven flat out lap after lap — so that the pack breaks up and the likelihood of The Big One is lessened.
After Dan Wheldon’s death, IndyCar had no choice but to make those changes, and they’ve done so quite well. Their new oval racing formula is great. All I’m saying is that I hope NASCAR can be motivated to take some of the same steps without the same very tragic impetus because for NASCAR the stakes could be a great deal higher.
Now, if you can rebut that rationally without calling me names, please do so. I’m all ears.
John is right. Open wheel has a far higher level of a–hole fans than any other motorsport. Look at TrackForum, Crapwagon, and Smackedforum as examples.